All about Gruen

[Fred]

Putting this all together, in one post. From 2 documents, I think we can provide the details of the earliest 11 Gruen company caliber numbers. An early catalog describes them all by number, and its price list shows them in exact order by size, matching the numbering in my list below. Two of these are later confirmed by caliber number, size, and configuration in the 1917 Blue Book.

At least # 1-10 are Dresden/Glashütte (#11 Ladies model likely sourced there, too, but TBD). The Blue Book calls the 12-sizes the "regular American thin model," to differentiate from Verithin. The early catalog refers to some as the "1895 thin model," in reference to their casing; from the context, I think this is also referring to the 12-sizes specifically (my alt. reading: "Fitting all regular 18 and 16 size & 1895 Thin Model Cases"). The early catalog states all these 11 calibers "are also made non-magnetic."

#1 - 18 size, 1st Grade, Hunter
#2 - 18 size, 1st Grade, Open Face
#3 - 18 size, 2nd Grade, Hunter
#4 - 18 size, 2nd Grade, Open Face
#5 - 16 size, 1st Grade, Hunter
#6 - 16 size, 1st Grade, Open Face --> size + config. confirmed in Blue Book
#7 - 16 size, 2nd Grade, Hunter
#8 - 16 size, 2nd Grade, Open Face
#9 - 12 size, 1st Grade, Hunter
#10 - 12 size, 1st Grade, Open Face --> size + config. confirmed in Blue Book
#11 - TBD ("Ladies") size, 1st Grade, TBD configuration

Pasting the Grade definitions. 1st differentiated by raised settings, extra escapement cap, gold train, double-sunk dial, as well as finishing/adjustment.

(1st) Argentan Metal (silver and nickel), full ruby jeweled, of the highest quality, set in fine solid gold, settings raised, extra center jewel, extra capped jewel escapement, fine solid gold wheels, escapement made of hardened solid gold of spring temper, fine ruby pallets, poised lever, chronometer balance of stationary adjustment, isochronal breguet hair-spring, micrometer regulator, white double-sunk enamel dial set in a silver ring, fine hand-finished steel hands, adjusted in all positions, isochronism and temperature.

(2nd) Argentan Metal, full ruby jeweled, of the highest quality, set in fine solid gold, extra center jewel, capped jewel escapement, escapement made of hardened solid gold of spring temper, fine ruby pallets, poised lever, chronometer balance of stationary adjustment, isochronal breguet hair-spring, micrometer regulator, white enamel dial set in a silver ring, fine hand-finished steel hands, adjusted in position, isochronism and temperature.

Below, list from 1917 Blue Book (printed late 1916) + Linked images from catalog shared in post # 34 here: https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/the-best-gruen-p-w-collectible.123022/post-1554965

[Fred]

So the answer to my question on another thread, re: whether there were later production runs…

Is Yes! See # 68,174 at link below. Several markings to suggest this was made & imported in 1910s, not to mention the changes in construction. Too bad we aren’t given a size!

http://www.dietrichgruen.com/history-1

[Mr. Bieser]

Very interesting find.
Yes difficult without size but despite that I thought this one is worth sharing too.

"Maquina "Gruen", Gran Precision, Volante Cronometro, Extra Jewels"
66696.

https://gruen.watch/?product=66696-d-gr ... sion-extra

[Mr. Bieser]

Maybe check this out again. It's dated now but good data that applies to your theory. That'd be a new discovery if, in fact, they did produce or bring in any of these movements that late. Never heard that suggested before.
Also of note the J Assman 68161 assembled from... old stock.
Link claims Gruen ceased at 68000...You're showing 68174.


https://www.glashuetteuhren.de/die-uhre ... d-assmann/

[Fred]

I understand the feedback, and I'd like to talk it out a bit more. It seems to me that the truth is not actually known by anyone. Even the "ended at 68,000" on the glaschuette site is phrased as a proof, indicating it's supporting a theory.

The discovery of a signed # 68174 is later than the article on the glashuetteuhren.de site, although it is included in the serial number list pdf on that site.

https://www.glashuetteuhren.de/app/download/5693327651/19.10.2021+Erfassungstabelle+%26+Legende+Gruen+%26+Assmann.pdf?t=1634616434

Of note in that document, movements after # 62,672 are transitioning, with most movements signed "& Sohne/Sons. The latest I have with "& Son" is 63,019 -- not in glaschuette list-- but it has a case marked "& Sons." Yay, we can pinpoint the range to 1897-8! But it also becomes clear to me that not all movements were finished sequentially, even at that time. Some sizes/grades with higher serial numbers had already been finished earlier--marked with "& Son."

https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/d-gruen-son-circa-1896-s-n-63019.5441390/

There were clearly partial movements on hand with Assmann, which were not used by Gruen (like the # 68,161 also stamped with Assmann # 20,454). Again, this shows that higher serial numbers were assigned and even already stamped on some unfinished stock.

However, 68,174 is a different animal. The serial number font is different (specifically look at the 1 and the 8, although 6 is also different). The regulatory markings--and balance markings--are unlike any other known examples. They only fit after 1909 Tariff is active--while they best fit 1909-1913, they could still be used later. Likewise, there is the "Precision" diamond, which I have seen in ad since 1911. Nothing is obscured or restamped. There is no way to go beyond the conclusion that it was finished after the 1909 tariff entered force (Gruen would not need these stamps if already imported). We can only question when and how!

So how would I explain 68,161 vs. 68,174? We have no size for either, but...
-there were at least 10 known calibers ca1900
-there are only 2 listed in the Blue Book for 1917 as openly available--#6 & #10, both OF
-their Hunter counterparts are implied to be available--this would presumably fit 68,174
-I propose, 68,161 was remnant parts for a size or grade that Gruen had discontinued much earlier
-I would guess, 68,174 will turn out to be a 12 size--bc the 12 size seems to have been last produced, with "10X" the last remnant discussed in later parts books. (Edit: this was incorrect--68174 is positively identified as a 16 size, making it cal 5 / 5X)

I could go into how they were finished (noting the sn font matches Gruen swiss movements), but that would be even more tenuous.

[Mr. Bieser]

Thanks for the breakdown. Learning alot from this post.
Yeah, I don't see how anyone can get around the stamps on 68174 you've shown more than enough evidence to show that it;s 1909 and/or after. All your past tariff marking research continues to pay off. Never heard it before cuz it's def a new discovery.
Yes more has clicked for me about these movements in the last 6 days than the last 6 years combined.
Look forward to hopefully more new realizations. Good work and cheers.

[Fred]

Much appreciated!!

[Fred]

My guess may be wrong about the size of # 68174.

Here is an unknown caliber from this family--17 ligne (almost 12 size) and 17 Jewels if the OP has measured and counted jewels correctly. Too big for a lady's movement, imo. If this is a man's movement, I would assume Caliber 10 has the same look, just dressier.

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/early-veri ... ost-564910

[Fred]

Very interesting find.
Yes difficult without size but despite that I thought this one is worth sharing too.

"Maquina "Gruen", Gran Precision, Volante Cronometro, Extra Jewels"
66696.

https://gruen.watch/?product=66696-d-gr ... sion-extra

I've been trying to find a lead to help make sense of this one. But the closest I've found is 66166 engraved 1902
https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/rare-and-h ... ost-482544

[Fred]

I have recently posted a 1907 ad (see 1900’s ad thread) still listing Dresden as a factory. I would like to also point out a Gruen factory statement (aka bill) to Milton Kohler & Sons, dated Nov 1 1911, that lists among the factories “D. Gruen & Sohne, Glashutte by Dresden, Germany.”

From this, and borne out by shown movement #68174, we can see that still in late 1911 a connection to Dresden existed, or it was recently enough severed to have not run out or produced new billhead. I will proceed to prove the earliest date at which this movement could have been finished—in another thread.