All about Gruen

[Mr. Bieser]

Hi, I'm having a bit of difficulty iding this one, I believe it's from around 1922, so im requesting help to positively ID & determine if this wristlet is in the catalog bc my eyes can't determine. The wear doesn't help as does I only have access to soft bound copy that's lower quality catalog at this moment Thanks!

Ps I don't know what these hands are called either but I believe they're original as I see them on others like wristlet 26.
Gruen, Ultra Quality, Gold Filled, Wadsworth, 733844, 819 1/2, W.

[Dietrich]

Should be WR79. This is at least what I classified my identical 819 1/2 Paris Square...

[Mr. Bieser]

Ok, I was looking at that one and do see similarities but i'm on the fence, i had rejected it bc I feel there are differences around the bezels and the scrollwork. It may be the closest but not exact, only my opinion and I appreciate your feedback.

[Dietrich]

The engravings on these early wristlets varied a little, just like dials and hands. To me it's the shape, material (Ultra Quality), color and movement size which mandates the model number.

But it might well be that it is a pre catalog model as it is from 1922, the year the catalog / masterbook was started during second half of the year.

[Mr. Bieser]

Agreed, could predate or could be missing post compilation even. Again appreciate your response but imho while dials, hands changed & movements transitioned Gruen assigned a seperate model number with even the slightest change in case design/styling. If someone could show me that Gruen listed numerous case variations under one model designation, I would accept it. Currently, I'm not a big believer in the variations theory and if it's a different case, it's a different model number.
I suppose I need to check the papers too.

[Dietrich]

I have been in doubt about this theory for a while as well. What convinced me was the pictures of some Cartouches with and without flex band. In theory the band should have been the only difference, but I noted that also the engravings differed sometimes for the same model.

Car173.JPG (29.15 KiB) Viewed 39 times

Car76.JPG (31.48 KiB) Viewed 39 times

I chose these two examples because I own them.

[Mr. Bieser]

Thanks for these examples. Interesting and yes I'm open to it now more than ever. But this does not convince me this is the case for all the types/models across the board, at all times. To me this is showing that there was variations on the watch case for the Cartouche Flex versions, possibly just to match bracelet better. I'd really like to see some examples where the lugs are identical.

[Fred]

I note WR45 has a lower case number visible in Master Book, so clearly at least that high were in play when yours was cased.

I can also prove the engraving/dial/hands change theory.

A niggle, here. I believe the new nomenclature came in early 1924. Most (i.e. Straps) are matching by Q4 1923, but...
-9/1923 we still see Square 36 (Wristlet WG18)

-11/1923 we still see Square 35 (Wristlet WG 20).

In 12/09/1923 NYT, we still see Square 31. Described in ad as, "Ultra quality or solid white gold; $30 to $55, according to case and movement." This model does not exist in the Master Book as a solid gold model. At least in my viewing, it has been replaced by Wristlet WG19 (visible differences: numerals, "Gruen" placement, hands, possibly lugs). I have also not found it within the WR section, but I have traced its transition

On 5/4/1924 NYT, the nomenclature is changing. But not yet ours. WF19 anyone? "White gold reinforced. 'Precision' quality."

On 5/18/1924--same electro as 5/4/24--the nomenclature is correct to ours. But at least the engraving, dials & hands, possibly the lugs (and possibly all) have been updated in our Master Book for a final WR19.

[Dietrich]

Perfect observation! I can go with this checked my sources and can confirm. The switch to WR nomenclature for wristlets happened in May 1924 although other families already had the masterbook numbering scheme since a while.

This now explains why models before this date may or may not be in the masterbook, apparently some older models from 1922 or 1923 which may still have been in production by May 1924 are in the book, and some are not (may be they were obsolete prior to May 1924).

[Mr. Bieser]

Agreed, these are great observations by both of you guys! Thanks for sharing. Some models seem to have many distinct variations, so while accepted this is somewhat surprising.