All about Gruen

[Dietrich]

BTW. I believe that we would only see the Precision Diamond trade mark on movements. Simply because this was the one also registered in Switzerland October 1912:

[Fred]

I believe that’s the only place I’ve seen the Diamond logo used on a watch. Certainly, the dial on that Louis in last ad just says “Gruen Precision” text only. Again, begs the question: was the Eye ever used similarly?

Thank you for showing the old Precision logo, which can also still be seen in the 1911 ad on the 16-size watch dial. Perfect segue!

[Fred]

Next, I want to connect the dots behind the ads. This is more than just a logo change: it’s an outward sign of a major strategic shift. Important, as I believe this is the last portfolio strategy shift in which Dietrich was directly involved, before his death.

The new Eye logo showed up in Nov. 1909. Rewind just 5 months, to June 26th 1909: there has been a HUGE transition.

J. Alfred Aeby—designer and maker of Gruen’s first Swiss Precision movement line—was shown the door. Ernst Degoumois had put managers in charge of his factory in St. Imier, freeing him to take the reigns at the Gruen Watch Manufacturing Co. in Madretsch and lead it in a new direction. Others here could perhaps say more about the reasons he was the choice—and his connection to Gruen on this topic.

By Nov 1909, Eduard Gasser had been brought in. Among his duties (and other juicy projects) was being the Gruen staff member with power of attorney actually residing in St. Imier. By 1911, Degoumois’ contribution is nearly done: he begins a transition back to St. Imier, and on October 14, 1912, Georges Goy officially replaces him at the Gruen factory.


Net, behind these new marks, in 1909 the Verithin family has officially been crowned as the “lead horse” of the Gruen portfolio. It has grown on its own merits from a separate, almost gimmicky sub-brand that was originally not even signed “Gruen,” to the firm’s most recognizable and differentiated offering. It has for some years already been preferred to the original Madretsch (Aeby) line; now that line’s days have been numbered.

The new Precision mark is part of this crown. Since the time that Verithin had first merited a Precision grade, it had “borrowed” the old Precision dial logo shown above: already long in use by other lines (Dresden & Aeby). Now that Gruen was planning to break away from the old, in favor of the Verithin flagship, it needed its own badge. Which we have now traced.

[Fred]

To the watches! We will start with the 1909 transition.

# 138,969 is the highest I have seen so far with pre-1909 markings. You will see the build of the Verithin has visibly changed at/in the 139,000 range (look at that click)... we've got a new man heading the factory!

We can also be certain the marking transition happened at 139,000 or above. Indeed, looking at # 140,167--the infamous "Anniversary Engraved" V3--we see transitional markings. Compare it to the last 2 images (# 139,675 & # 140,109), and the early import/transitional marks for 140,167 become clear: "Seventeen" has been added after the fact; still has "DGS" logo + old "Gruen Precision" stamp (with no periods); has no # of adjustments; has no "Temperatures" marking.

From this, I conclude that serial number blocks of some Precision grades of the Verithin frame (i.e. V3) at/above 140,000 had been finished when the 1909 tariff took effect & had to be reworked. Net, I believe if the "Precision in Eye" mark exists on movements, it will be at 140,200 or above. If on dials, it could be 139,000 or above.

Pre-1909 tariff marks: 138,969
Image linked from: https://gruen.watch/?product=138969-verithin


1909 Transitional marks: 140,167
Image linked from https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/verithin-watches-gruen-aegler.3154706/post-28815938


1909-1913 tariff marks (Phase 2): 139,675
Image linked from https://gruen.watch/?product=140109-gruen-precision


1909-1913 tariff marks (Phase 3): 140,109
Image linked from https://gruen.watch/?product=140109-gruen-precision

[Fred]

We are drawing near the close--I hope it has not been beleaguering!

Today: launch of St Imier Precision frame + launch of Precision Diamond + "Regular Adjusted" Verithin sn reset + Aeby calibers last production

We have seen the "Eye" disappear after 12/1910, with nothing further seen until the "Diamond" appears 8/1911. This appears to be a start of 1911 directive to top Gruen dealers not run ads with the old logo. Otherwise, would literally no dealer run an ad with the "Eye" logo, after steadily advertising it for a year?

Why the sudden stop? This time--start of 1911--appears to be the full reset of the Verithin product line, including the roll-out of the new St Imier style frame for Precision Verithins. The Precision Diamond and St Imier frame could have come together, with first lots produced & at least a few imported in Q4 1910, for the new year's sales strategy rollout.

We have seen the old Precision markings and movement style (with some small upgrades) continue until the 140,1xx range. Here are the new movements.

# 141,524 (V3, case # 182,548; "March 22, 1912" presentation) - lowest sn I've seen with Precision Diamond; lowest sn seen with the "St Imier" style Precision frame; only one with 1909-1913 Phase 1 tariff markings.
https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/gruen-case-production.84890/post-634683

# 141,650 (V3, case # 181,640)
https://gruen.watch/?product=141650-janowitz-son

# 141,793 (V3, case # 178,940) - invoiced 8/17/1912 to Milton Kohler

# 141,943 (V2, case # 182,517) - invoiced 8/17/1912 to Milton Kohler

# 142,036 (VE, case # tbd) - parts sheet picture posted to forum

So you see the fly in the ointment: HUGE gaps in Precision Verithin serial numbers I have seen. However, we can see the St Imier frame & Diamond so far seem to appear same time, possibly first to be seen between 141000-141500.

But I am not proposing that there are 1,000 - 1,500 missing Precision Verithin movements made from mid-1909 through 1911; it is far fewer. The gap is mostly caused by other movements still in the mix at 141k:
-"Regular Adjusted" Verithins are still in the mix: last known one is #141,099 https://gruen.watch/?product=141099-gruen-verithin
-Precision Aeby movements are still in the mix: last known one is #142,685 in June 1999 NAWCC bulletin (16 size, 21j Precision, OF, cal 50?)
-Before 1909, only the LV movements (now discontinued) and the "Regular Adjusted" Aeby movements have jumped to the 300-400k sn range.

[Fred]

I think we can now close the loop on the “Eye.” If it is to be found—whether on dial or movement—imo, best chance it will be on a Precision Verithin with sn between 140,200 - 141,100.

[thesnark]

I have never seen the Eye mark on dial or movement for any pocket watch. I have 6 records for Verithin watches (V2, V3, V4) between 140,200 and 141,100, but none had it.

I additionally record the existence of runs of Nr. 6 (size 8.5''' [?]), Nr. 4 (size 0), and caliber 56 (size 16) within the serial number range. No Eye there either.

It's hardly more enlightening than what's already in the thread, but based on the data, I feel comfortable stating that it was never marked on a movement or dial.

[Fred]

Thanks very much for the feedback! I had hoped you’d be able to add some data points in the blank space, so 6 are much appreciated. Sounds like the Eye may be forlorn hope. Remains a head scratcher, to take such trouble if it never saw daylight.

[Mr. Bieser]

For the record- I'd just like to state- that I'm a believer!- at least in theory!- of the possibility of Precision in Eye being on movements or dials.
Up until a few months ago, no one would state that 18k in Eye would be found in a case, the data didn't point that way, but hey, there it is. And a quick mention but I believe in "Guild in Eye" being used too, at least on cases.
See, I'm dealing with this right now in something I'm researching. The data I've collected that I'm looking at, which is "significant", does not show what is clearly evident in documentation elsewhere.
The data is not pointing me, yet, towards the facts, Data can be just as misleading as leading. And imo, we haven't seen enough to fill in all the blanks.
But you're trying! And I appreciate that.

[thesnark]

Oh, I agree. I certainly won't stop looking, just because we haven't seen one!

It's just that I can see the logic for why it wouldn't be on the movements or dials.