All about Gruen

[Fred]

Need some forensic dating help. I found an original document in an original document! This was folded up in my 1926 parts book, behind the price list. Apologies for a watermark--but I'd like the files to stay here.

It is thick paper stock. My first thought was, the edge seems to indicate it would be the back cover of a paperback, stapled booklet. But now looking closer, it may be a stand-alone flyer. A few sayings to date it: "Most beautiful watch in America"; "since 1876" (not yet 1874). The color of the edge, also the watch illustrations, could help us.

Easter eggs:
-A VE grade, serial # 142,036. V4 grade, serial 453,047 (and last 3 of case # 357 ) --> both earlier than those shown in the 1917 WCOW; both still marked words + numbers
-And some of these "factory available" hand styles are ones I've not seen...

Ok, enjoy!

[Mr. Bieser]

I'll take a stab based off of the advertisements only, I think it's after June 1915 when "the Most Beautiful Watch in America" was intro'd and before May 1916 when 1874 refererence begins in earnest. I'd say about a one year window. Just a guess and it will be interesting to see if it can be really nailed down.

What a find! Wow! this is way more significant than a "back cover". Nice to see a record of some of these hands and their learn proper names. What a highlight! This is a rare document and I sincerely thank you for sharing.

[Fred]

Thanks!! That's the range I was thinking, as well. If the form number has any date reference embedded in it, I was thinking it would have to be 1915.

[thesnark]

This is a great document! I'm very glad to see it.

I have seen all of these styles of hands, but some are not common.
Moon - common on early watches, uncommon to nonexistent on later ones. This is the typical handset seen on the earliest of Verithins.
Cathedral - interesting that this is not the pierced diamond style that I thought was called cathedral! Also, I've generally called these "moon hands"...
Old English Roman..... well now. I always called these ones "moon hands" too! Good to know they have a real name. They're seen pretty often.
Louis XIV hands are not uncommon. Interesting and confusing description there. I think it's trying to indicate that all the other styles are available in gold composition at that price.
Spade hands are uncommon, though definitely out there. Spade/spade and spade/whip are both found, but spade/spade isn't shown or mentioned here.

[Dietrich]

What a find, congratulations. This is a great new document you are sharing here, much appreciated.

[Fred]

Thanks, guys!

Louis XIV hands are not uncommon. Interesting and confusing description there. I think it's trying to indicate that all the other styles are available in gold composition at that price...

Thanks for confirming where these styles live. Means I must have seen them all, just overlooked. I am also stumped by the Louis hands description vs. pricing. "Gold" vs. "Composition gold plated"? Were there solid gold hands of even low carat, and was there really no pricing difference for them vs. composition or steel? Maybe they are transitioning to "composition" from "gold"?

This sheet caused me to look back, appreciated your comments in the thread linked below. Curious where you see these pictured movements living in time. I thought the V4 could be one made ca1912, but this VE is the lowest sn I have seen. Seems the VE grade are like hen's teeth!

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/a-rare-16j-gruen-veri-thin-p-w.69124/

[thesnark]

The VE grade is absolutely hen's teeth!

For the VE: the thousand watches around its SN were sold from 1912 to 1914. Given that obviously few VEs sold, it is reasonable to assume that this watch was in inventory in Cincinnati whenever this illustration was made.

For the V4: it's quite clear that it couldn't be manufactured later than 1913. 1912 is the best fit. It is reasonable to assume that it would have moved on from Cincinnati before the end of 1913.

The above make me think that the illustrations (not the pamphlet) were created in late 1912 or 1913.

[Fred]

Thanks! I’d previously thought the VE debuted around 1914, clearly I’m off.

More support for 1915 date on this flyer: the tagline of asking for a “very thin watch” equating to Verithin seems to be unique to early 1915 marketing copy.

[thesnark]

Assuming as I do that you can identify the VE grade by the presence or absence of the word Extra:

The earliest recorded is 135006, dating to approximately 1910-11. After a couple in 135k, I have seen none until 141k.

They appear regularly in my observations from 141k to 145k.

The last observed is 145288, dating to an unknown year and probably sold in the late '20s.

The point where Gruen stopped selling them as they were made appears to be 144k.

[Fred]

Great info! Thank you! Yes, that’s the only way I’ve identified them.